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1. These guys slip through the process every now an then. There was a recent (~2006) graduate from Brown University (Ivy League) with a Ph.D in Geology by the name of Marcus Ross who is a YEC. His story caused a lot of discussion about 1.5 years ago on the blogs, etc.

   He now works a Liberty University, Jerry Falwells fundamentalist religious college.

   Comment by Divalent — August 29, 2008 @ 2:49 pm

2. Divalent: Never heard of him. Well at least he works (and preaches) only to his own followers so to speak.

   Comment by Antimonite — August 29, 2008 @ 3:20 pm

3. What you have to understand is that these people *can* slip through the cracks, and generally do so by answering questions correctly on tests, and researching stuff they don’t believe in, yet doing research good enough to satisfy a university. It happens. BUT, they do not tend to have a successful career or end up being viewed as anything but part of the lunatic fringe after this kind of a change. Kurt Wise (head of Answers in Genesis) is an example of this - he decided during paleontology graduate school at Harvard studying under Gould that since evolution contradicted a literal interpretation of most things in the Bible that he had to give up his scientific career, get his Ph.D., and then do something else. He openly stated that he was now a YEC and many wanted to kick him out of the program, but Gould defended him (apparently on the grounds that the research he was doing was proper research).

   In any case, I hate to be harsh, but based on the past nature of these posts I need to take you to task for some sloppy research which I believe fueled your (mostly justified) frustration. Something as simple as a Wiki search reveals that many of the foundations of your post are pretty far off - he became a creationist at age 26. I can’t be sure, but I’m guessing that he was already deep into his Ph.D. research by that time, and it was too late to turn back, assuming that he took the standard path of in for under-grad at 18, out at 22 and at a grad school within that year. I highly doubt he went straight into grad school declaring his YEC beliefs and trying to do ‘research’ on this and wasn’t thrown out of the program. According to the Wiki page he teaches at the well-known Institute for Creation Research, not a proper university. In other words, the only place he’s allowed to teach is in an institution filled with other worthless cranks. According to Wiki, he works at the Los Alamos National Laboratory, but based on some other info a Google search dug up, does legitimate research there! I generally don’t consider CreationWiki or sites of that nature a reliable source, however, that institute doesn’t seem to have staff pages, so I’ll quote from their page on him: “John works as a staff scientist in the Theoretical Division at Los Alamos National Laboratory, where he has continued his research in planetary mantle dynamics, including the potential for catastrophic mantle overturn. Dr Baumgardner’s current technical work at Los Alamos includes development of a new global ocean model for investigating climate change.” There was a paleontologist who came ‘out’ as being a YEC a few months ago after getting his Ph.D., and spoke of his Ph.D. research by saying that he was ‘working in two different paradigms’. I think that this guy is capable of the same kind of compartmentalization.

   Also, while I probably shouldn’t be giving you hell for not doing proper research when I’m relying on a Wikipedia search rather than a thorough search of his papers, I’d like to point out that, at the very least, the names of his most cited research sound like legitimate research - he’s probably ‘working in a different paradigm’ when he does real research. Or at least, that’s the way the papers seem. That at least one is published in nature gives credence to this. Examples of the most cited from Wiki: “Effect of depth-dependent viscosity on the platform of mantle convection” “3-Dimensional Treatment of Convective Flow in the Earth’s Mantle.” “A sensitivity study of three-dimensional spherical mantle convection at 10(8) Rayleigh number: Effects of depth-dependent viscosity, heating mode, and an endothermic phase change.” To be fair, a page I just grabbed did mention that he focuses on this kind of research about the mantle trying to demonstrate that a plate tectonic ‘revolution’ could occur ‘all at once’ in hopes of demonstrating the possibility of a world flood causing it - or something to that effect.

   Here’s a page on the guy which seems to indicate that he has at least some intellectual honesty (not claiming that famous weirdly shaped rock is Noah’s Ark): http://www.nmsr.org/baumgard.htm

   In short, the main source of annoyance here is that you seem to think that cranks like this actually get real jobs as teachers and scientists-on-staff and/or are allowed to get a degree by people who know they have everything wrong. That’s not how it works, they’re marginalized by the scientific community as they should be (the whole focus of the Expelled movie) - they’re just a bit more prominent here since the public loves ‘em.

   Comment by Thomas M. — August 29, 2008 @ 10:27 pm

4. Marcus Ross, now at Liberty U., got his Ph.D. from the University of Rhode Island, not Brown. According to his dissertation acknowledgments Liberty University paid for part of his graduate education.

   The most prominent such creationist is Kurt Wise, now at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Kentucky. He got his Ph.D. as a self-identified young-earth creationist under Stephen Jay Gould at Harvard.

   Comment by RBH — August 30, 2008 @ 1:51 am

5. I’d like to point out that Kurt Wise wasn’t a YEC when he entered grad school, he had his ‘revelation’ after he had got there.

   Also, the name of the recent creationist paleontologist I was thinking of was Marcus Ross. There’s some info on him on this blog: http://scienceantiscience.blogspot.com/2007/02/two-faces-of-dr-ross.html

   The sheer amount of cognitive dissonance that poor bastard must go through to compartmentalize the way he does is amazing.

   Comment by Thomas M. — August 30, 2008 @ 2:01 am

6. According to his own account Wise became a YEC when he was a sophomore in high school, well before he entered graduate school.

   Comment by RBH — August 30, 2008 @ 6:48 am

7. Thomas M: Im sorry, but I really dont like your tone to me, especially when you say stuff that I already brought up in my post. I completly acknowledged the principle of him being a liar - so why explain to me that he could fake his way through thing not compatible with his faith?

   It goes without saying that I understand that… But Im queastioning if he really contributes to science, or simply just cost money.

   Its just not possible for someone who have to “work around” this much all the time to be able to come up with any important science. At best he could be medioker - but still an obvious liar. Guilt by association and “ad hominem” perhaps, but personal credibility is important in science.

   And that simple fact, that he must lie (or “work around” all the basics of science) in some way all the time, makes him very unreliable as a scholar and scientist because it akes him unreliable as a person.

   And for me not researching him enough, well - as you said your self - the titles of his papers hardly shows the quality of them. I must say, I wouldnt dream of judgeing a book by its cover - not in science at least. No, for all his shiny merits and trinkets, he still is a YEC, and that means he must lie all the time, pretending to understand the foundations of geology. That combination - of him being a liar and a YEC makes him by default being a poor scientist at best, and a very unsuitable teacher of students for a fact.

   Comment by Antimonite — August 30, 2008 @ 7:10 am

8. And by the way Thomas, he also works as “Technical Staff Member/Scientist - Los Alamos National Laboratory, Theoretical Division, New Mexico (1984 - Present)” according to his own resume. Of course, that could be a lie and Wikis talk about a creationist center the truth, which makes my case the more stronger - any way the fact is.
   .
   If he works with creationists, he was a waste of resources for the UCLA.
   If he works in Los Alamos National Laboratory - he is one hell of a manipulative man for working him self through the system as a YEC, which makes me question everything he has published by ad hominem. And it makes me question the american system that makes it possible that someone can get such a position with that background and view on science. Its not like he is hiding his beliefs and true view on science - that means the system accepts him. And that makes me question Los Alamos National Laboratory. What kind of scientific institution has a YEC working there? Its like hireing a nazi to do work on biological anthropology - I would never accept any claim that the persons personal beliefs “dont matter” … of course they do - the man looked for Noahs Arc for gods sake…
   .
   I truly hope that he doesnt work at Los Alamos National Laboratory any more. I truly hope that his only work today is at that creationist center as you say. Its bad enough that the system let him through in the first place - but I really hope it doesnt continue to do so still.

   Comment by Antimonite — August 30, 2008 @ 7:23 am

9. I’ve got to agree with you Antimonite, I’m scared YEC’s are able to get such degrees in Science, because it gives them more credit.

   However, I’ve to mention another side of the “same” story. Last year, when I entered in Master 1 Geology at Liège Uni, Belgium, there was a new student, Hakim, from Morocco. We’ befriended quite quickly, and he told he was a muslim, and thus, didn’t beleive in evolution in any way.

   Firstly, I though “Damn, how could you be a geologist while thinking earth has been created in some days or months, how could you write “Liassic rock formation” in you strigraphic log when you’re geo-mapping an area?” That didn’t make any sense to me.

   But then, he described where and how he lives, and what he wanted to do: he lives with part of his family in the desert, in a small village around an oasis, and this guy wants to study hydrogeology to save his village, to get them water! Damn! This is really something worthy! He tries to save his familly while I’m studying Ichthyosaurs from SE France! He would be called a pseudo-scientist while I’ll be a “true” scientist, but man in this story the hero is not the scientist!

   Comment by Valentin — August 30, 2008 @ 9:25 am

10. Valentin: Thats acceptable. As long as they keep to doing that and never use their academical title in any educational och scientic purposes besides that. The problem is that I think many of them do just that - not saying that about your classmate of course since I dont know of him at all.

    Comment by Antimonite — August 30, 2008 @ 10:35 am

11. Antimonite:

    I’ll address a couple of things in particular then the tone comment in a more general way:

    I was aware that he worked at that institute in New Mexico and mentioned that - what I was trying to get across is that he’s on staff there as a research scientist (and apparently does legit research there) but is *not* allowed to teach. I certainly agree that he wouldn’t make a reliable scholar since you would have to check all his work for bias, however, I doubt that institute lets him get away with any shoddy research that has their name on it (though I have no idea why they keep him on staff since as far as I know a purely research scientist at an institution like that doesn’t get tenure). At the very least, I have to give him credit for some intellectual honesty after reading this: http://www.tentmaker.org/WAR/BaumgardnerLetter.html Of course, it’s ridiculous that he thinks the Ark is out there somewhere to be found, but at least he’s willing to go against his allies if he thinks they’re wrong.

    As for the tone: The frustration is caused by this idea that’s expressed here and in earlier posts (and a general frustration with this view that I’ve seen expressed by non-Americans) that creationism is somehow such a part of the culture here that the real scientists in America just cave in and let these people teach at universities, do ‘research’, etc. and accept this into the mainstream. I in particular don’t like it when the claims that are made are poorly researched when they come up with this. The reality is that they’re marginalized into a lunatic fringe where they should be - they just tend to have big mouths and end up in the public eye due to this. That said, yes, I do think it’s scary that these people can get PhDs in subjects they believe nothing about, but I’m not sure if one should deny a person a PhD on religious grounds that they’ve done the proper research on (though that’s an entirely different discussion). It seems a more reasonable tack to take would be to deny them entry if they feel the need to be ‘honest’ and say they’re a YEC on their grad school application.

    That said, since you called me on this, would you like me to see if I can dig up a few of the papers now that I have some more time? I probably won’t be able to comprehend everything written in them (in particular the advanced mathematics that’s going to come with a geophysics paper) but I do have a good bullshit detector so I can at least take a crack it. And I’ll post the links to the papers here for people more experienced than me to dig through if they wish.

    As for Wise: I just looked it up - it was high school. Based on some quotes I’d seen by him, it seemed like it was college or grad school since he talked about how emotionally wracking it was for him to realize he’d be giving up a career in science.

    Comment by Thomas M. — August 30, 2008 @ 2:17 pm

12. Just a brief note to add to the discussion; most of the “legitimate” YEC “scientists” often get their degrees in a technical field that ultimately has little to do with biology or paleontology. I think (without any research) that Henry Morris had a degree in some kind of hydraulic engineering, and Duane Gish had a biology degree from the 1940’s. I OFTEN see the kind of intellectual disconnect in my own students: they will answer the questions correctly on the tests, but will tell me that they don’t “believe” the findings of science at the same time.

    That’s the problem with YEC. They “believe” in their religion, and they have the same approach to all the other subjects they have to deal with: to believe or not to believe. If they decide they don’t believe, no amount of fact or research will shake that belief.

    Luckily I get a few students now and then who free themselves from this way of thinking and start looking to see if there is a way to reconcile their religious beliefs with what they actually see happening in the world. Education is a wonderful thing.

    Comment by Garry Hayes (Geotripper) — August 30, 2008 @ 9:28 pm

13. “Just a brief note to add to the discussion; most of the “legitimate” YEC “scientists” often get their degrees in a technical field that ultimately has little to do with biology or paleontology.”

    I think there is some truth to this. There’s a ‘law’ (akin to Poe’s law), though it hasn’t been given a name yet, that states that if a creationist trolls on a given website, blog, message board, and/or starts their own blog, webpage, etc. and claims to be a ’scientist’ that it’s typically an engineer of some variety (it’s said that electrical is the most common variety, hell if I know why) rather than a biologist, geologist, or paleontologist.

    “Luckily I get a few students now and then who free themselves from this way of thinking and start looking to see if there is a way to reconcile their religious beliefs with what they actually see happening in the world. Education is a wonderful thing.”

    This kind of thing warms my heart. Education really is wonderful.

    Comment by Thomas M. — September 1, 2008 @ 12:47 am

14. There are lots of problems in geophysics that aren’t reliant on Deep Time - data processing in exploration seismology, for example, or computational sleight-of-hand for other survey techniques like radar or magnetotellurics, or magnetosphere dynamics, debris flows, rock fracture mechanics, liquefaction… while you end up doing work that looks a lot like engineering or computer science, or occasionally plasma or condensed matter physics, it’s still connected to a geology department. If you’re clever about who you pick for your exam committee the amount of “alternate paradigm” cognitive dissonance would be pretty minimal.

    Baumgardner came to my AGU poster when I was a first-year grad student. Seemed pretty normal until I saw the institutional affiliation on his name tag; I thought about asking him about it but didn’t quite feel up to handling any ensuing discussion.

    Comment by Maria — September 2, 2008 @ 10:04 am

15. John Baumgardner is a good friend of mine, and the wrath posted above is not unusual when the things of God are discussed. If we believe John, and I do, then we have to believe the bible, and I do, and that book says we are sinners bound for hell except we accept by faith the death of Jesus on the cross as a payment for our sinful lives—I do.

    The old scientists, Galileo, Copernicus, etc., were thrown away because of strange ideas of a round earth and the earth not being the center of the universe. So to be ravaged by incensed psuedo-scientists as seen above is the price of truth the John Baumgardners and Copernicus’s must pay.

    Comment by Pete King — February 16, 2009 @ 12:37 am

16. What I can see here is a bunch of “scientists” who are as tolerant to difference as the KKK. Instead of expending so many words trying to denigrate the person, if one of you had read some of his articles/letters and counteracted his views, point by point, it would have displayed some scientific temper, and may be some scientific reasoning. But alas! You want to use the “scientific” tag and cover-up scientific frauds like “Origin of Species”. Tons of tax payers’ money is pumped into public funded research institutes the world over, especially in the USA, to maintain and propagate such scientific frauds. Dr John Baumgardner appears to be doing a great service to humanity through his expository articles and the “scientific community” appears to be sweating in the brow, as can be observed by what they are writing about him, here and in other places.

    Comment by Samuel Batian — April 11, 2009 @ 8:31 am

17. Samuel: Oh great, go for the “tolerance”-argument. Thats proves Baumgardner right. Everyone knows that the nicest guy is the one who is correct no matter what.

    *sigh*

    Comment by Antimonite — April 11, 2009 @ 9:07 am

18. My “tolerance” point was just an observation of the manner in which Baumgardner is being badgered here. If the people writing here are so “scientific” they should pick on the point put forward by him and explain to non-scientists, like me, why he is incorrect. Just because Baumgardner thumps the Bible, does not mean his science is faulty. In fact your faith in the “Origin of Species” appears to as blind as his faith in the Bible. And if he is incorrect, please tell us how. Snide comments cannot be termed as “scientific”.

    Comment by Samuel Batian — April 11, 2009 @ 1:36 pm

19. Samuel: How can I have blind faith in the Origin of Species when I havent even read the damn book? Tell me that. Your logic is both faulty and wrong.

    I believe in the correctness of the scientific method yes - and that includes all good science - and that includes the theory of evolution, which is a theory that has been continously developed greatly since Darwins days and is not an old dogmatic claim. It is not a blind faith at all based on one mans book. He just happened to have coined some of its first elements in which the theory of today is based on. Darwin knew nothing of the elements that the theory rests on today with the further development in methods of dating and genetics. He just coined a sound priciple that has been proved to be correct through the years.

    The christian faith however is based on one book and has basically not developed anything for a thousand years. Basically since its a fairy tale - and impossible to develop much further without losing its credibility.

    The difference between religion and science is obvious - both in practise, theory and nature. To anyone that knows what science is that is. And that doesnt include creationists. You guys dont have a clue about what science is - which you have proven all to well here with your ignorant talk about “blind faith”.

    Comment by Antimonite — April 11, 2009 @ 7:42 pm

20. Please look at what you have written. No where is there any indication you have researched what Dr. Baumgardner has done for science , all i see is a lot of emotion and religious predudice. When you don’t even pretend to know much about a person and call them a liar and crank it says more about you than the person you attack.

    Read about the Terra project. Go to Google and type in “NASA Terra John Baumgardner’ . NASA ,and everyone else in geophysics ,considers him the world’s foremost expert in computer modeling for plate tectonics. 14 countries of the European Union and the European Space Agency use his software for satellite weather forecasting.

    It amazes me that people who consider themselves tolerant ,free thinking, and open minded decide truth based on popular consensus and show little interest in deciding truth for themselves. An open minded person who look at the accomplishments of creationist such as Terra , the discovery the Red Wall Limestone of Grand Canyon was formed violently and quickly ,in days at most ,instead of millions of years and the M.R.I. and many others and appreciate the brilliance of their science instead of calling them names.
    What have you added to science?

    Comment by Forrest Charnock — August 10, 2009 @ 12:44 pm

21. As the previous poster has written, John Baumgardner is highly regarded as a computer modeler of physical processes. What I have never been able to figure out (having known of him for a number of years) is how he reconciles his work (which does deal with an ancient earth) with his personal beliefs (which certainly don’t). Especially how does he justify (to himself) letting his name appear on scientific papers which he believes to be littered with falsehoods?

    Comment by j a higginbotham — August 15, 2009 @ 4:20 am

22. Really the problem for most with the age of the earth and how it formed is their faith in evolution. Many posting here could learn alot by watching Ben Steins documentary, Expelled. As for John “slipping through” the education system, take heart, even Hitler missed a few.

    Comment by SH Jackson — November 24, 2009 @ 5:58 pm

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